Hello and welcome to this week's Now...why? podcast. Today in the hot seat, I've got Doctor Jan Russell. She's a highly experienced, open hearted coach and trainer who combines mindfulness practice with a wealth of psychological application. She is known for her transformational work using the power of neuro linguistics. Jan integrates the art of science and how thoughts, words, body and spirit connect together.

And as one of the first people to be certified as a PRINT® coach and trainer in the UK, combines these methods with neurolinguistic practices to achieve optimum results. Welcome, Jan, it's an absolute pleasure to have you with us today.

Jan: Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me, Kay. Wonderful.

Kay: So if you know, the first question that I ask all of my guests is, tell me about the first time that you encountered PRINT® and any moments that it gave you.

Jan: Okay, so I first encountered PRINT® whenever it was first in H&H. So Helen and I had talked about profiling systems. I'm not as you know, I'm not a great fan of personality profiles when they result in people feeling as if they have a label on their head and they can never change. And then they put everything down to this is because of this.

This is because of that. That said, I have learned that that's very much about how the system is used. But I say it because when I went into into learn to do PRINT® in the first cohort of coaches at H&H and I discussed all this with Helen, I suppose I had quite a not a cynical head on, but a kind of oh, it's another profiling system.

What's it going to be like? We went through the training from the States with Paul. Paul Hertz and Deborah. Deborah Levine and it was interesting. It was just interesting. I sort of sat there thinking about it. I understand some of the background as well to PRINT® in terms of connections to the Enneagram, and perhaps a slightly deeper archetypal thinking that some psychology has.

So I let it sit with me a little while, and I was thinking, yeah, this is quite interesting. And what I liked about it immediately was that it's a profiling system that talks about motivation, how people are motivated, why they're sometimes more motivated than others, what gets in the way, and also has within it suggestions, if you like, for understanding each other's triggers so that a group of people who are PRINT®-ed, they learn not only to understand themselves better, but they learn a system for helping to understand others.

So if you and I were having a discussion and one of us wasn't at our best, the other of us might know through the PRINT® profile what kind of things might have triggered off that. Not at your best state and then, you know, would find the resources somehow to to work with that. So I liked it from that point of view.

It had this little extra in that I hadn't seen before. And then the first time that I was part of rolling it out to to other coaches or within a company, I, I understood what a great language it gave people to talk to each other in. So at that time I was part of a team of coaches. Well, I was the coach actually, who supported H&H's leadership programs.

I was kind of one of the first coaches to do that. And in the leadership programs, of course, they were introducing PRINT®. So this was very early days. I think we must be in 2017, 18, maybe 16 early on. Yeah, yeah. So it's early on. And what I noticed was we did a lot of phone coaching with fairly high powered people who would start the sessions really quite, I think, ambivalent about the whole process, should we say quite doubtful as to whether we could do coaching on the phone and quite doubtful about what this PRINT® thing really was because they didn't understand it.

So we'd go through the debriefing session and then begin to move around it and through it and, you know, talk about it and what it meant in everyday real life. And I would say each and every one of those coaches, without a doubt, in the first cohort that I had, which was an organization that had been privatized from having been nationalized for many years.

So they were really in transition with their management group, their senior leadership group. And I would say each and every one of them learned so much about themselves and were able to apply that learning into their roles as new leaders, really. So that was my first I suppose. So that was my introduction, my thoughts about it. And then the HR was like, actually this, this is great.

This group of 12 people have an added tool to use to discuss with each other and their own development and the organization's development and when they're managing other people. So that sort of did it for me. And I went on to do coaching in various organizations. I can remember with head teachers who, as you know, we've just been talking about education outside this, outside this podcast together.

And head teachers, I think are under a lot of duress and often feel pulled this way and that. There's what they want for their students is what they have to comply with for the authorities. There's there's a curriculum issues. There's all these layers that they have to work with. And I can remember I can see the face of one head teacher now and I am going back some years.

But the revelation to him of his PRINT® profile and his self understanding of yes, that's exactly what triggers me. This is where I was at yesterday in this meeting, and I've got Ofsted in a couple of weeks. And then working with those revelations, having PRINT® as the tool of discovery, I, I thoroughly enjoyed it and, and, and have used it on and off ever since.

Kay: And I think that that is the word, isn't it discovery. Because I think what's quite interesting and, and, and I'm really interested to know from your point of view what you got out of reading your own profile as well. But you know, that fact of, you know, people in education or academia, you know, they've got such a depth of experience from around people issues and profiling tools and all, you know, and all that kind of thing.

And actually, you know, they're coming at it from a from a perspective of they've probably got quite a lot of deep self-awareness already. Yes. But actually, what does that you know, it's almost that that golden nugget, isn't it, that then gets thrown into the mix. That is the moment, you know, that the head teacher would go, oh, that just written right there is absolutely what happened to me yesterday.

Jan: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly it. It was this lovely focus for people. And sometimes people would go, no, I don't think that's me. And then we kind of talk that through or they'd come up with some event that they wanted to debrief and then they might go, actually, you know, that is me. When I go into shadow, that is me.

Kay: So from your point of view, Jan, what do you think it is about your your PRINT® profile that attracted you to the. I mean, you've got such a breadth, haven't you, from a career perspective?

Jan: Oh yes. Very focused and all being very much in that space of supporting and helping from all walks of life, you know, from that therapy therapeutic point of view through to coaching point of view.

So can you share with us anything around how your Unconscious Motivators have have attracted you to, to the different things that you've done in your career?

Jan: Well, I think the wanting purpose and meaning in life is huge for me, always has been. And it's right the kind of span of experience culturally, you know, quite kind of wide culturally, both sort of geographically and I suppose demography wise.

And I've always worked with, you know, senior, senior, very high level people in terms of what is visible in terms of having perhaps the career, the CEOs and so on, and people on streets who are fighting addiction or, you know, people who are recovering from trauma across the whole range. Because I believe that people are people. And I know that's one of the things about my profile as well that I think does ring true.

I like working with people, and I'm not afraid to perhaps go into depth or to work with difficult situations. What attracted me? Well, probably I've got a touch of the of the kind of wounded healer, if you like. You know, kind of, a few things happened in my life that were difficult and, and I think have enabled me to be quite resilient as a person.

And I think I recognize vulnerability. So I was always attracted to working with people. First of all, I wanted to be an infant school teacher, right? By a long time, I'd love to have done that because I believed, and I still believe that what happens with children when they're very young. Now, this is obviously from my past, isn't it?

But what happens with children when they're very young is so influential to the rest of their lives. If they're allowed to be listened to and free and creative, then that will influence their future. And often when we coach people, it is people who have got stuck with their freedom and creativity and purpose, isn't it, who want to be unstuck and helped forward.

So I'm not sure how how closely I'm answering your question there, but I think I was just it was always understood that I would do something helpful as well. Right? Because I was a very poor background where, you know, my mum and dad worked very hard to enable me to have a better education than they had been able to have.

So it was always there that I would therefore go and do something that was instantly seen as very useful. And I started off going into, I kind of tried nursing for a year and was offered a fast track, but I'd never have gone in nursing because I was too ballsy and I kind of couldn't work with the hierarchy.

It was. It was too much for me at the young age. So I went into social work. That's my first career, right? And then through that context and discovered what I was really good at, what I was really interested in and diversified. So it was always that wanting to help people, wanting to be useful, having some meaning has been my main driver.

Kay: Really? Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I do always find it fascinating talking to people around because, you know, it's that we talk about the iceberg, don't we, in PRINT®. And actually what we make a judgment on is that observable and accessible tiny little tip. And then when you really start to dig beneath the surface and understand and like you say, listen to people's drivers and where different careers have taken them to what they've loved doing and they've been really fulfilled and where maybe they've taken a different path, I think is is absolutely fascinating because whether we realize it or not, it is drawing us somewhere, isn't it?

Jan: Well, 100%. And I was thinking this morning, so, you know, I'm, I'm sort of past the usual retirement age or the prescribed retirement age, and I still do some work, and I'm fortunate that I can I can choose the work that I do, and I do choose work that I'm passionate about because I am passionate about it. It's exactly that I am drawn to that that fascination, to that discovery and to that. I always feel it's such a gift to be part of somebody else's self-discovery and their own empowerment. We talk about best self, don't we? In PRINT®, and it's sort of when you are working with somebody. Currently, I'm working with some cancer survivors and we're doing a fascinating piece of work, which is part coaching and part creative writing.

And and it's just such a privilege to see and hear people finding some agency in a situation where they have felt they haven't got any agency, and finding their creative genius sides and so on. So that is quite wonderful. So yes, I think there is a drawing towards. It is fascinating and I get something from it. You know, I learn from people all the time.

Kay: And I think that that that is a real golden nugget in all of this, isn't it? And one of the things I like about PRINT® is that you never stop learning. Absolutely. You know, we continue to evolve or we continue to live and we continue to do whatever we're doing. And actually, that is drawing on our unconscious motivators, whether, you know, whether we really sorry, whether we realize it or not.

Kay: So tell us about NLP because for me, obviously, you know, your lineage of NLP is incredible. So I'd love you to tell our listeners about your lineage, but also about that real connection between NLP and how PRINT® can hold hands very nicely with some of those wonderful techniques.

Jan: That's a lovely way to put it. I think that's absolutely right. So in terms of my lineage, I discovered, well, I'd read about, but I started to train in NLP in 1993, I think, and I was very fortunate to train with an extraordinary woman called Beryl Linley, who who was the first ever certified trainer in NLP in the UK. So she had gone to the States to train in this discipline, which I'll talk about the discipline as well it.

And the discipline is very practical. I'll say it now. It's not a theory, it's not a psychological theory. Neuro, you know, neurology, our brain attached to the whole of our body, if we're lucky, linguistic the the language. We use language to code information and to and to communicate with each other. And programming is all about what we do.

We're always neuro linguistically programming. Right. So Beryl had learned how to teach this and she had learned with, you know, top people in the discipline. So she'd done a little bit of training with John Grinder, who's one of the co-founders, a little bit with Richard Bundler, another co-trainer. So then Beryl said to me.

'Why don't you train with either Bandler or Grinder' so that 4 or 5 years later I went off to London with my partner and spent ten of the most intensive days ever in my life with a man who I fondly say is both barking mad and absolutely brilliant. And that's the great Richard Bandler, who just this intense, intense program he works at so many levels.

And from him I learned a lot about working with the unconscious mind and working through story. And I know story in various ways, with clients, through metaphor and through crossing that bridge into these deeply ingrained patterns that we have. You know, when you get stuck in something of what I can't I'll never I'm not the kind of person who these come from programs from way back when.

And with NLP, you can learn to, it's like taking the bricks out of the foundation a little bit and saying, well, actually that one doesn't work for me anymore. It was great while it lasted, but I think I needed a bit of new grouting in there. You know, I need a new brick or a drain over that side to get the rubbish out.

That's in my head. And NLP can do that, you know, using NLP with of the right ethic, I think, and with an experienced practitioner is a highly powerful thing to do. So I came out of that with my masters in NLP and I was buzzing. My partner was also buzzing. I mean, it was like having Richard Bandler on the couch. He just couldn't stop, you know, impersonating Bandler and and so forth. So I was very fortunate to have that training. Then over, over time, I also trained with Beryl again to become a trainer in NLP. I'd done various three day workshops here and there with different organizations because I like to keep up to date and I like to keep engaged. And then I went after doing my trainer training with Beryl, I saw an opportunity to do trainer training with John Grinder, so I went and did that as well. So I'm doubly certified. And again, that was magic. I loved working with Grinder. I thought is absolutely the real deal, you know, very different from Bandler who's also the real deal.

But the differences between them are a gift. I was very fortunate to work the Grinder. I took a lot from, from from learning with him, which I, I bring into my training when I work with people. Well, I bring it all in. I think Grinder's work. We share with us the difference between their specialisms and that obviously their co-founders.

What do they each bring to the NLP arena? That's a really great question actually, because because John Grinder was a professor of linguistics. Yeah. So this is where the neuro linguistic comes from. So he is very much about really just using language in everyday talk. If I say to you, you know, don't forget your handbag, it's very different from saying to you, remember your handbag for all sorts of reasons.

But so, so transformation can happen through changing language. And that's what Grinder really brings to the party. I mean, some of his, some of his writing is really quite deep level linguistics. I'm an educated reader and it's a, it's a, it's an attention demanding read. It's that kind of stuff, you know, because he goes into all the all the foundational stuff of linguistics is very creative, is well worth watching on YouTube or kind of whatever area you can find him, because he's just a bloke who has done some amazing things through neurolinguistics.

So I think he brings the language and he brings metaphor, big style in a different way to bundle it so he will work through metaphor. He will take people into situations that in a way replicate what's going on inside their head, right, and work with them that they don't even know he's working. He's working with them. Really interesting, isn't it?

I don't know how you divvy it, really, but I hope I've explained that as a difference between the two. John is very much from the language outwards, and I think it's very much from the body outwards.

Kay: Yeah, yeah, it's and it's and it's wonderful to hear you bring that to life. I mean, I'm sure lots of our listeners maybe are already NLP trained or have a, you know, inclination of what it is. But I think from that real experience piece, it's really interesting to hear what does it do? And just listening to you talk about that. Like I said before, it's about that. How does it hold hands with PRINT® and that real shift, isn't it, around reframing is a wonderful technique, isn't it, to use with PRINT® of that best sell shadow fantastic triggers.

Yes. You know, how do we do this thing from a PRINT® point of view? Why do you do it? Where does it come from? So it's the why and the how together. Because at first. This is a good point. Because as you know. Okay, when I heard the why of PRINT® again I've been trained hardwire trained in how is the question to ask.

So and I thought about that as well. And I think the two can go together very well when you know what they relate to. So the why offers offers meaning and understanding. And that is key in the how can also lead to. So how do I change this then if I want to, how do I understand this person differently. So that's all very cool. And the other influence on me, which I will say would be Robert Dilts, who is that? A first generation NLP practitioner who went on to develop his own frameworks and models. And it was him, really, who I think took into the corporate world. First of all, the idea of modeling excellence in a very specific way.

And I worked with Dilts for four days, which I found great, and I went on the hero's journey with him, which I loved. I now run The Heroine's Journey, which I'm doing my first one off in April. So. So I've had some great opportunities to learn from the best and from the originals. So my lineages, you know, I'm proud of my lineage and I'm glad that I have it.

And I know that there's things I pass on, you know, people who train with me. I know they get some of that. Sometimes I think, oh, I'm turning into Beryl or, you know, like, oh, that's a bit of a grinder moment or whatever it is. But mostly it's unconscious because we do don't with that is the Let's. Yeah. And I think that's your your point. You know, I know you do the rocking the crone don't you. You know, you do the guru piece. And you know, I've trained with you for many years on many different areas. And the so many of us that have had the gift of being with you and learning from you and modelling.

And I hear that, you know, from other people, you know, sometimes I hear things, I think that's jam. You know, I hear those words. I hear that or see that that way you've been and that's the that's the story, isn't it? That's the beauty of being able to then, you know, give and and share that gift with others for them to continue all that wonderful work.

Kay: Which kind of leads me very nicely to, to one of the questions I always love to ask our coaches. So what would be your golden nugget for others to learn from you? Now we talk about best practice. We talk about sharing, don't we talk about, you know, how we can pass on our knowledge to others for for the greater good.

So what would be maybe one of the things that you think would be really useful for other people to maybe even consider or pick up and run with on on a fairly simple level in a way, but it's something we don't always do, is use all your senses in your work, whether you're doing PRINT® or NLP, watch and listen and feel.

Jan: So it's almost like draw on your learning, your your your formal learning and trust yourself. I think it's kind of know thyself is what I'm probably going to come to. So going back to the beginning of our conversation, my PRINT® profile helped me know myself more openly and honestly. The little bits that I was kind of denying. And NLP is all about no, no myself.

It's very mindful and I think, well, I know that I can buy mindful practice now to which is compatible with both NLP PRINT® and a meditation practice. This so so I think it is that probably. I'm not very good at tiny nuggets. You know this.

Give us the big stuff then give us the big bit. So I think it's kind of know yourself go through. I now wouldn't really teach anybody or coach anybody something I haven't done for myself. And that's what I mean. It's like actually, no, this stuff. Know it inside yourself and then trust yourself. Be courageous with your work, have great beliefs, create great beliefs about yourself.

And I don't mean that arrogantly. You know, I'm actually not that arrogant. I don't think I'm not really an arrogant person, she says arrogantly.

But there's some, you know, every room I walk into, I would put myself into the right state and that perhaps goes alongside know thy self. It's not only know who you are and what you're capable of and what your shortcomings are. Know your values. You know values are key. People are important. I will never do any work now unless I'm enthusiastic about it, because that's not fair to anybody, you know?

So my values are fairness and so on. And take your passion in with you, keep your ears open and be prepared to be wrong if there is such a thing. I don't really think that's right. So wrong. So I think there's resourceful or own resourceful. Anyway, there you go. So I'm going on a bit now. Okay. But it's it's somewhere around that.

It's it's somewhere about that congruence of yourself. Yeah. And leave space for people to come in. Yeah. Like my ego in the training room again. It's out the window. I'm not there for me. I get things out of it, but I'm not there for me. You, my clients are the are the are the center of any work that I do.

Kay: And I think any coach just needs to always have that in their mind that it's it's about that. It's genuinely about that person in front of you. It's genuinely about that team that you're working with. Ego. Forget ego. It's it's not about that. And I think I love all of the things that you've said there. There are so many, so many golden nuggets that's made a massive golden bar.

I think, you know, you're actually, you know, when I, when I accredit new coaches, we talk about the fact of, you know, consider your own unconscious motivators, you know, what do you bring to the party when you are. Yes. Delivering a workshop, doing a debrief, coaching someone. Think about how your own and conscious motivators play a part in that.

Yeah. You know, and that authentic self of bringing you to the party but recognizing because sometimes it can be quite difficult, can't it, to actually park that to one's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think especially when you're setting out, especially when you're setting out, I think you should get more experience. And there are there are advantages to aging. And I think some of that you, some of those are that you can actually sort of not be so precious about your own ego.

Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking she was speaking there and very, you know, kind words about training with me and, and my relationship with H and H sort of goes back a long way because Helen has trained with me way back in about 2012, I think, and has very kindly invited me to consult to H and H or to train within H and H, and I think that actually is pertinent to the question about how do we combine PRINT® and NLP, because in some of the courses I might run, some of the development workshops I might run, we very much use the language of PRINT®and the approaches and skills associated with NLP and the attitudes. The attitudes of both PRINT® and NLP are really quite interesting because the attitude of NLP is very much about curiosity. Be curious. Hence the question how? How did you do that? How can I be better? How can I do this? And then the PRINT® question of why is also an open attitude is not. It's also curiosity. But I'd almost want a slightly different word for it.

And I'm not sure what it is, but it's it's a willingness and openness. So you've got curiosity and openness working together. And then frameworks PRINT®'s got a very clear framework. NLP has actually as well because it's a model. So I think in the training rooms or development rooms at H.H., I've very much enjoyed the fact that that is an organization with the vision to kind of put these together.

So we get the why and the how do actually what does this mean in terms of how we can optimize any change. That's. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, just just listening to you talk about that, I think, you know, I think about our purpose, which is about inciting brilliance. Yes. Both of those things do that. Don't you know, when we look at from an NLP point of view and the techniques, it is about how, how do we incite brilliance in others and ourselves, and how does it help us to understand what our brilliance is and how do we make that shine and dial it up?

And how do we, you know, stimulate and create that in others? And I love your I, I love the word resourceful. I think you're absolutely right. I love that word because it is about, you know, what's the resourceful state for you right now? Yeah, exactly. Being right, right, right or wrong. And, you know, some of that wonderful kind of reframing and, you know, considering what does that mean for me?

And how do I show up as my best self, but also from an authentic, you know, perspective? Wonderful. Well, I have absolutely loved, you know, talking about NLP, talking about PRINT®-ing my very favourite things in the whole world with one of my very favourite people in the whole world. I have a couple more questions that are a little bit of fun.

Kay: So I know you love metaphor, and I know that you are the queen of metaphor. So if you were to describe your PRINT® profile in a metaphorical way, how would you describe it? For our listeners and our watchers, my PRINT® profile is a dance. It is the waltz. So it has rhythm and structure with opportunities for a little bit of flair here and there.

It always has a map to it. And you can go off the map, you can go up Cordy Sacks and, you know, round the round about three times that you've always got something to come back to. So I think that is my profile. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely. If any of our listeners want to get in contact with you, Jan, what would be the best way for them to maybe drop you a line or get in contact and hear about some of the other wonderful stuff that you do alongside, you know, you PRINT® practice.

What would be the best way to do that? Well, my email is Jan @yourbusinessinmind.com That's your business in mind or one word. Com so do feel free to email me. I'd love to hear from you if you've got questions or comments. I'm always curious as to how how talks like this are received. So? So that's one thing.

I can't remember what my Instagram handle is. I'm not brilliant on social media. I just have to tell you that's our pop up now and then. But I do have an answer to handle. I think it's Doctor Jan or something like that, Doctor Jan Russell, but emails probably the safest bet. I, you know, I can give my phone number if you like, but I'm not sure if you do that.

Kay: Maybe not. Let's, let's, let's keep it at that. And, you know, for us, you know, music is a really you know, dancing to music is important. But music for us is is one of those real motivators. So we have a lovely playlist called now that's what I call my why. So we invite all of our guests to add a song to that playlist.

That is something that is very personal to them. That is your go to for a motivational song. So, you know, what would you be popping on either your, you know, Spotify or vinyl or a CD or whatever where you want to feel really motivated and driven and it just really gets you going when you hear it. I think I've got loads, but the one that came into my head.

Jan: So I'm going to trust the unconscious. Just as you were speaking, there is actually tub thumping by chumberwumber. Nice. Let's go for that. Absolutely. Go for that. If that's what I'm your unconscious, let's absolutely go for that. Wonderful. Well, I'm just going to wrap up now and say thank you so much for joining. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Kay: And for all of you listening. You know, like and subscribe listening to our next session. Thank you to Jan so much. And if you've not investigated NLP before I advise you to to go and do a little bit of investigation. And obviously you want to know any more about PRINT®, then please drop us a line. So thank you all very much and have a great rest of the day. Thanks, Jan. Thanks. Absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thanks.