Kay: So hello and welcome to the now why podcast. This is a wonderful space for our coaches, our PRINT® coaches, to learn something new from our wonderful coaches that are already out there and demonstrating and leading with PRINT®. This is also a great place for people that don't know anything about PRINT® to learn about its application, the wonderful things that it can do, and think about how we use our unconscious motivators and our drivers to move us forward.

Today, in the hot seat, I've got Wayne Okell. Wayne i has got an MBA. He's an accomplished leader, a mentor and a coach with a career spanning the military, business and international sport. As a director of talent at fairways, Wayne provides vision, strategy and the practical tools for leaders to thrive, empowering them to lead with courage. Explore vulnerability and learn from failure, which I think is a really interesting lens to look through.

Wayne's 30 year Royal Naval career saw him rise to warrant Officer First class and play a pivotal role in the in developing effective personnel and designing specialist training for elite military and police units worldwide. In parallel, he has led therapeutic and trauma informed services, supporting vulnerable young people through outdoor activities, coaching and multidisciplinary care. As a founder of the Royal Navy Rugby League, he guided the UK Armed Forces to World Cup victory, coached internationally and now mentors professional athletes while serving as an intuitive trustee for service leavers.

Wayne is thought leader, an unshakable optimist and an example of transformational leadership in action.

Wayne: Thanks, Kay. Honestly, it's brilliant to, to not just, speak to be able to see you as well. So, Yeah, it's great. And, we're literally up to, you know, signs of this. Otherwise we'll be here all day, you know?

Kay: Absolutely. But we can edit it. So that's. That's all. That's all. The question I ask all of my guests is, tell me about the first time you encountered PRINT® and what it did for you?

Wayne: A good friend of mine, Martin Johnson. So he's here, who's, you know, an avid user of PRINT®. Martin and I go back years and he kind of said to me, look, I've got a tool that that'll blow your mind. You know, you've just let me let me give you a look and feel of it and, and just see where it goes.

So, so obviously I agree to that, you know, trust Martin implicitly and, and I got the report back, and then I started to read the report. What I loved about the report was it's the reason I think we've, you know, I absolutely bought into PRINT® from the start and and suck it up and rolled it out across the organization was just the fact that the language is very clean.

It's very clear, you know, and and it's not complicated. It's simple to understand, but the depth that you can get into, you know, from like an interpersonal perspective with people, it's just phenomenal.

And also the depth of team work and team work in that you can get into, you know, where you can take a team from a new form and steam, team, you know, through the storming phase into those normative behaviours that you chase and, you know, to, to eventually become a high performing team.

So, so I loved it from the start and then, and then invited Martin down. And what we did then was we PRINT®-ed sort of 20, 25 of our exact team. Martin did a brilliant, kind of presentation around PRINT® and social styles, and we were we were off and running. And I literally it was at that point that I ditched, what we're using already, which, which I wasn't too I wasn't too happy with. Anyway, we were using a tool called Insights, and, like that, just like the accuracy was like. Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't great.

And and PRINT®, I mean, I, I goodness knows how many people I'vePRINT®-ed. Now, I must be over a thousand, you know, but, out of all those people I've probably had 2 or 3 that have, have a, you know, you know, turned around and, and said, this is not me with their reports.

Two of those of, of of literary, flips during back, you know, during the session and then come back to it and go, actually, this is me and then had one which, which took 24 hours. I asked him to show his wife and his, and his family, and he was waiting for me at 7:00 the following morning to go.

Okay. Yeah, it's all me, you know? So. So this, you know, PRINT® is phenomenal. It's a phenomenal tool, you know, and and actually, you know, we've embedded that deep into, into our culture at Fairways.

Kay: And I know that you have used it extensively all the way through your people journey, haven't you? Right from onboarding, induction. Can you can you share anything with regards to how you've done that and what you've done with it? Wayne. Because I know that a a you've used it for many, many years, but b) you've actually spread it far and wide haven't you. Across your teams.

Wayne: We kind of, we would use PRINT® is it depends on, I would say the individual directors, you know, within the company whether they want to use it, you know, a certain level. So from a manager or an executive level upwards, you know, we definitely PRINT® all candidates. And, we'd look at, you know, whether we thought they were a good fit for the role based around the PRINT® and whatnot. So it's it's quite, what I love, as well as all the directors, if their ways are au fait with PRINT®, the language, the numbers, the groupings of numbers, you know, because that's important as well.

And then from, from a talent perspective, PRINT® forms, one of the, the key elements of, of, of what we do. So, let me give you an example. I'm running two leadership programs in Wales currently. So that's two cohorts of leaders. And we use a skills, report. We use an attributes report. All of that is the golden thread that's wrapped through that is, is PRINT®. And and what you'll do is like our, our, our whole leadership pipeline is six workshops, leading self leading others, leading teams, etc. and even the lead teams is that there's a, there's a forensic interrogation of of how to lead a team. So within that, the first thing we always start with is, is understanding yourself, you know, in your PRINT® for instance.

And and what triggers you, you've got but I think one of the big things that we've really brought to life this last few years is, you know, you may have triggers, you may find yourself in shadow. What should we say? You know what what what recovery techniques have you got when you have been triggered off or in shadow?

But also if you're going to an event or you're working with somebody, let's say that that may trigger you. What do you do in advance of that? So so it's making people more conscious and mindful of, of the impact that they have and the others have on them. And and we use it from a team perspective massively.

So we're always looking at, you know, team dynamics. What are the dominant behaviors in teams? You know, what what numbers have we got in terms of everyone's PRINT® profiles. I guess what numbers are missing as well. That's an important one. What we do about that, I'll give you a good example. I've got one on our operations board of directors.

I've got I've got one person that I regularly. I just she will know if she listens to this. She will know exactly who it is. I watch a like a hawk because she's my, she's my emotional barometer and, you know, so she she's in 6 in PRINT® to be safe and secure and to be perfect. Correct and. Right. So she's a 6-1. And what she's absolutely great at is, finding any blind spots or, or or any, you know, great holes in your, in your fantastic master plan, you know, so, so I've got used to, all the time just saying, you know, 'what you thinking?'. And I'll often say that in advance of, you know, taking anything to be ratified, you know, all over, or if I've got a proposal, I'll kind of send it her way for it to get, you know, have a look, because she'll spot risk. She'll spot any anything that that that requires a little bit of mitigation around it, for instance. And and it's really powerful how you can use other people's numbers to, to make your journey more effective at work. We use PRINT®, I use it I've gone off piste a little bit, so I use it from a an HR perspective.

And you any, any individuals that kind of would have relationship issues at work, complain about someone, you know, etcetera, etcetera. I'll always encourage people to go down that line of mediation and, and course, one of the first things, first questions I ask is, can I share your PRINT® report with this individual and cannot and can they share their PRINT® report with you?

And and that often a lot of dialogue happens around that, you know, and and even in that case I always say like dialogue, privacy, let's get talking. Let's find out about each other, let's work out, you know, because you may be inadvertently and unconsciously triggering somebody without even knowing, you know, so and and that often comes to light in mediation sessions and rather than, you know, it going on, be in this long, protracted issue and, and an effect in other members of the team, it gets solved instantly.

Kay: I mean you know I don't think you've gone off piste at all. I think that's a really great example of it as its application and actually that real depth of understanding not only yourself but other people. And I think that that's really important, isn't it. Like you've said, you know, kind of nipping something in the bud or actually dealing with something before it gets out of hand or grows even bigger. It's a really good example of how you've built psychological safety around it, you know, helping people to be vulnerable and supporting that real open conversation and dialog about the things that motivate and drive them and the things that actually, you know, might trigger them into, into shadow behaviours.

So I think, you know, when you when you create that type of culture in that environment for people to be able to do that, that's got to impact that high performance and that humanistic way of being and operating as one community and collection of teams that are all heading in the same direction for the same outcome, but do something different.

Wayne: I think we've got an example of this actually, where it's about creating a feeling of safeness, which is like, almost like it's like safety but on steroids, if you get my drift. One of my leadership programs, I've got an outstanding, young girl on, on the, one of the programs, and she's 9-1 in PRINT®.

So to have peace and harmony and to be perfect corrects and. Right. So what you see in there is I'll create, activities and and scenarios that will, require people to have a view and share their view, you know, so it's important that, you know, that that's done in a safe way, in a safe manner. So all this is kind of, you know, verbally contracted at the start of the programs and, and our programs last a few months as well, you know, so they go on a bit of a journey together.

So there's a real bonding element to this as well. You know, it's huge. But even that, when you then talk about this team of teams, people have bonded across teams and that can last for an extended period of time. So we've even had, people from certain teams peer review each other, join together and join forces where that wouldn't have happened.

You know, excuse me, without that, without the contribution that we get from PRINT®. And, so this, this individual world addresses something which I knew would spark, you know, a thought or spark a comment from, from her. But she would go to speak because she wanted it to be perfect. Correct. And right at the same time.

I can say it. Yeah. And what you what you detach is you'd always detect like a and have been intake of breath. And then the next bit then would be and then outside take a breath. You could see her 1 I'm about to say something because that's not right. And I'm going to give a view. And then her 9 to have peace and harmony would go, do we really need to say something? Should I just settle back into this comfy chair? You know, so I then go, what are you thinking? You know, and and teasing that out to the point where I ask that question. I've probably asked that the whole time I've been at Fairways. So I must be into, like, hundreds of thousands of times that I ask that question.

But the the point of it is you've then got somebody that will openly collaborate because they feel safe. You're asking five of you a 9-1s as well, a 9 in PRINT®, you know, why would why would we not want their view. You know, they've got like, you know, they've got they've got a great view on the organization, the, the people around them, you know, and and and just had great value. You know, in Best Self. So yeah, it's really important to do that.

Kay: It's quite intense because I know that, you know, you're accredited in a number of different tools aren't you. In psychometrics. It's great to hear your take on actually what that what that gives you and also what it gives to the people that you know that you have PRINT®-ed. Can you share with us any, any great feedback that you've had from, from those that have been through a Discovery Session or high performing teams or your leadership program? That's really kind of pinpointed PRINT®.

Yeah. There's regular feedback actually that comes back is is around. A lot of people wanting to PRINT® partners, boyfriends, girlfriends, husbands, wives, you know, because I think that is that they all, to a person leave the Discovery Sessions going away from their going. I am really curious about what are your half, as you know.

And I'll always say to them, see if you work it out, you know, tune into the language. What language are they use? And, you know, where does it sit? And we like some of the resources with PRINT® you can work it out. It gives you all that, you know, we have we have new team members join teams and we have teams contact us all the time, you know, within five days to then go, like, can you tell us when they've been PRINT®-ed and what.

Cos we always, we always say what numbers do you think they are? You know. So it's almost like a game that everyone's playing around guessing the new person's numbers, you know, and but people are just themselves really quickly to, to work with each other. That's, that's a great thing, you know, from a team perspective where you can then say there's this, almost like a I think I think people are interested in role alignment of new people that are joining, you know, based around that brand.

You know, so that's that's really crucial. One of the things that we're seeing a lot as well is it's like the, the, the level of self-awareness that some people have got, you know, having done Trent and having and used it within their teams when they go out. And so our services and we get a lot of good feedback around, how that's developing over time, you know, so, so, so that's great.

And then there's, I think another one, another good one as well as we've had 1 or 2 people that use that PRINT® as a use, shadow as an excuse. Sorry about that. It's just me, you know, I'm in shadow. So it's to be able to stop that straight away and just say, hey, listen, that's not acceptable.

You know, you can't use your shadow as an excuse. You know, that's not something you can just blindly throw around. You know, we don't want you to be in shadow. We want you to be in best self as much as possible. So, you know, so that transition from, you know, how they recover when the, when the deep end.

And that's even that this, this I think this is a key point actually. Okay. A lot of people will previously if somebody is in shadow, you know, people will say, what's wrong with you? And it's really difficult for a lot of people to answer, you know, like, are you okay? You know, and how do you how do you answer when you're highly emotional at times?

Sometimes, you know, you don't. And people say, yeah, yeah, I'm fine, I'm fine. I think with PRINT®, it gives you the language to, to be able to say, I have to. I'm triggered, you know, or people go, are you triggered? Because the next question is, what are you triggered about? And if you've got that feeling of safeness with the people that you work closely with and you know, you've got like a strong, healthy relationship, you know, work relationship with them, then straight away they'll open up into this, Alya.

And we encourage this kind of stuff. And, and our environment is, is is high in emotion anyway, you know, so it can be highly stressful because we're dealing with a lot of people, you know, that are very vulnerable that have, that have been through a lot of trauma, you know, so, so the environment kind of it's got a backdrop of this all the way around it, you know.

So, so it's just such a strong contributor to help you keep yourself in a good place.

Because actually, you know, that journey itself takes time, but once you're there, you want to keep it going. Don't. Yeah. You know, you want to protect your way of working, you know, that way of building a community and, you know, and communicating with one another because it's a very it's a very precious thing, isn't it?

And can very easily you know, be impacted in, in, in a negative way. So that sounds like, you know, that's having some well, you know, inroads for you as an organization and as those teams that is continuing.And you know, with that as well, we, we are desperate for people to make mistakes to, to fail along the way as well. On all of my, leadership and development programs, you know, we encourage making mistakes because it's important, you know, because, you've got to you've got to make mistakes and and understand what suboptimal performance feels like before you can, you know, reflect upon that, change it up and then and then understand what optimal performance feels like.

And then high performance feels like at the tail end of that. So, so the whole making mistakes, kind of philosophy is huge at Fairways. You know, we want it. We want, we want, we want to do that. You know, we we don't want to be making the same mistakes, you know, but we, we want to be making mistakes and learning from the massively, you know, and learning from them together, you know, as a group, you know, that's hugely important to us.

Do you support those people that, you know, that do make mistakes that are in that place of learning? And so sometimes it doesn't always go the way that you intended. What what do you do to to help that move from, you know, failure to success?

Yeah. So we build in if I use all of our kind of, leadership, career development, pathways, you know, built, built. And so all of those are experiential, activities. I, I like the outdoors as well. So I like to go outdoors on some of that stuff, you know, because it's great being in nature as well, you know, because it kind of links to, like your wellbeing, wellness and everything else.

But within that, one of the things that we do is we, we, we will create some activities where it will be so difficult to, just coast through that and just go, yeah, that's done. You know, that was easy. Next, you literally hit a roadblock. So you got to make mistakes. And there, you know, we'll we'll we almost like, build them.

I can actually remove to I'd almost rebuild them. So, so that people will make mistakes. Because what we're after is we're after adaptability. That's our number one skill. You know, one of our number one attributes that we chase. And then quite closely behind that is resilience. So, so the thing that links them to together is for me is like reflection.

So we're very prescriptive about how we reflect. We'll have like hot debriefs, hot reviews. What we're learning will reflect in groups. Reflective practice you know within fairways is huge. As part of as part of the leadership programs, I'll use Kolb in terms of experiential learning, you know, do review, apply. I'll use Gibbs. I really like Gibbs in terms of group learning.

So, that's like a six stage reflection model that we'll use. And, and we unpick stuff to death, you know, we really do. And, and of course, that it if it's like a high performance level that we're chasing, I am I'm relentless with that. So I will not leave. I will not allow people to finish their reflection without going, okay, so what's next?

And we want to know who, what and when. You know, so so our action from that I've got to be really smart you know. And then and I always encourage the group to hold each other to account with it, you know, so you can then say that we can fail at something. We can make a major mistake doing some kind of experiential, you know, activity for the learning.

And we layer that. So the learning builds upon each activity that we go. So, you know, it's and it's brilliant when you see a group that's made a mistake that sometimes will load them into a false sense of security to see if they make the same mistake and whether they've learned from that one through reflection and then and all the time, I guess, like, I guess the metaphor I would always use is, is about getting themselves back to baseline, you know, you may or you may, you may, you may fail in this.

You know, you may literally the team may plummet as a consequence of this. You know, the whole activity may go south and sideways and it's an object, an abject failure. But don't sit with that too long set with it. Indeed. You know, understand it. No, it's it. Name it. And then get yourself back to baseline within, within a few moments and then, and then we're going again, that's a great way of of that process, isn't it?

So actually, you've got something quite tangible to, to consider and, and think about. So I'm going to ask you this question when because lots of people especially, you know, running discovery sessions and leadership sessions, bet your bottom dollar. I always get asked this question.

So I'm going to ask you this question. The question always is what's the best makeup of a leadership team from a PRINT® profile perspective?

I it's really simple for me that there is no, I would say as many numbers as you can, you know, depending on the team, try and make the numbers as broad as you can, you know, so you've got that real cognitive diversity, you know, that, that diversity in thought and, and just diverse characters, you know, so as many numbers as you can.

But, but the secrets of PRINT® for me is keeping them in Best Self as much as possible.

big tech.

Yeah. Oh.

no it does not. You just said

I used to get that a lot. And then I just like completely, decompress that with what I've just said. And in terms of, like, you know, it's if you're in charge of any team, it's your responsibility. So to load people that are going to challenge you, that are not going to be like you necessarily, but can offer, you know, a level of cognition and a level of diversity, you know, that's just going to, you know, spark signups is, you know, set your team on fire and send you, you know, to, to the next level.

Love that. That's it's just, you know, all of those things really do make a difference, don't they, whether you're a leadership team or not. You know, we talk about the fact that, you know, if you get yourself out of bed in the morning, you are a leader because you've got a lead yourself first, you know, before you before you can do anything else.

And I think having that mindset is, is so important, isn't it?

Yeah, definitely.

Have a favourite part of the profile? Because I know, you know, from a from a report point of view, you get that you actually get quite a lot of different angles, don't you, from a do you, you have a favourite bit. That's something that you love and use a lot of.

I was a build up to the reveal, so I don't allow anybody to have the reports in advance of Discovery. And I'll probably build up to. We'll be like 40 minutes in before, and the reports are sat there and you can see them all desperate to get their hands on the reports.

But I kind of do this.

Kind of do this, grand reveal, and, and that has that has genuine impacts, you know, and yeah, I absolutely love when someone would circle the whole, you know, when you say, just circle some, some elements of your report that, that you would agree with, you know, the are you and maybe underline some stuff that maybe I'm not.

You are not so much, you know, or you maybe disagree with. And I love the fact when some of these read it that's been highly skeptical. And then they'll circle the whole page and go, all of that is me. Oh my goodness, you know, how does it how does how do you know this stuff? You know, so so there's that.

And then and I guess the second bit is, when we get them to get into and into, similar numbers and, and have a chart and then suddenly it's almost like they found some, I don't know, some, some kind of formula for alchemy or something, you know, when they join. Oh, we're so much alike, you know, that, some of the others can be so much like, you know, to them that they've never met before and they've just discovered, you know, within the space of, you know, 60 minutes of a PRINT® workshop.

And it's the it's the conversation and the richness of conversation that they're getting to. And, you know, when you I ask them to, I guess you do the same. You ask them to brief back around, tell us about what it's like to be these numbers, you know, and what comes out of that is like, it's mind blowing, it's it's incredible. You know, and and I don't know about you, but the thing that I love about PRINT® is like you, I've been, you know, delivering this for years.

I learn something new because the audience is different. The delegates own uniqueness to the party.

And so, you know, it's for me as a facilitator and as a coach, I continue to have moments because it's like, that's just an incredible insight into that Unconscious Motivator that is not mine. You know, we are all unique and I love that as well. Okay. And and I think that it's really important what you just said. You know, just reflecting on that. And I'm thinking like, it doesn't matter how long you've been delivering PRINT®as a coach, be open and receptive to what's going to come. Because when you are that open to it, you'll find a bit of magic in there that that suddenly you're going, this is brilliant.

You know, this is this is like, this is another bit of, of, of almost like it resets your why and validates why you should be using PRINT®. Because new stuff comes up all the time, you know, in on PRINT® Discovery sessions, you know, it's it's phenomenal.

So as part of this way and as you know this is about kind of sharing best practice and thinking about how other people can be inspired and learn from you. So my next question is, you know, what is best practice would you share with others? You know, what's your golden nugget that you think this is something that I've learned and I want, you know, other people to know about this, that they can maybe, maybe do themselves.

Your ability to read someone's report, help them if they're not in Best Self to help them, you know, be more Best Self. And,

You can help somebody when they're triggered or in shadow. Notice a name, what it is that they're going through, you know, and in naming it we've got, we've got a term we use it their fairways where we'll say, because sometimes it'll be difficult for people to actually name, you know, what they're going through.

And, and, and so we've got this phrase that we say name it to tame it. And, and of course when you do.

It just backs off stress, you know, massively for you and anxiety and a variety of other things that you may be feeling in the moment, even anger, you know, and it then helps you to then negotiate, not non-negotiable navigate, you know, that next, that next phase and get yourself back to a good place.

Love that. So I think, I think that's it that that's a great takeaway for, for me. Absolutely to you know, consider that. And I think you know like I said before I'm constantly learning with it. I think all of our coaches, having that open mind and considering what else can you do with it, what else can you learn from it is is really important.

So I know that maybe you could talk the cricket for the next three weeks, but sadly we've only got a short amount of time. I know that you've got to get back to work and spread that PRINT®. Love.

to you is, I obviously know what your profile is, but for, for for our listeners and our viewers, if you had to describe your PRINT® profile and, imaginative metaphorical way, what what would you say about yourself in your PRINT® profile? Wayne?

Wayne: So my PRINT® profile, I'm a, I'm a 3-8. So that's to succeed and achieve and to be strong and self-reliant.

It's really difficult because, highly, highly, highly competitive and, and that's something that's been, it can be a bit of an undoing, you know, in certain environments.

So finding ways of my PRINT® to release that competitive nature that I've got somewhere else at times,

has been the best thing ever, a story I tell myself is, and it's really difficult because I'll say everything doesn't have to be a competition way. But then I've got another voice behind that one that says, yes, it does. So I'm in a constant battle with myself that's like, you know, if you think about, like, the Steve Peters, Chimp Paradox. That's my human. I'm a chimp, you know, and constant in a constant battle. But yeah. So my story is like, you know, I, I am an unshakable optimist.

You know, I've been described as not before, and, and I will say from my friend, I will always say some kind of positivity in the worst scenario that you can imagine. I'll always find, you know, a shot of light or sunshine coming in from somewhere, and, I, I won't be down for too long, you know, if something can be, you know, quite seismic that that hits.

And I bounce back from that really quickly. And, yeah, I'm. I'm always keen on, on on bringing others with me as well, you know, and, and I also like, I like the most serious off task ever and then just turning them into, like, this is going to be brilliant. This is going to be the best thing that we ever do, you know, etc., etc. and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just completely switching somebody up that's gone. I can't believe we've got to do this. This can be. So like, for instance, I'll give you a good example. When I was in the military, we had to move house a lot, you know, and, my wife would be like, oh, my goodness, I can't believe we are having to move house again.

And I go, I love moving house. Me you know, I mean, who loves moving house? Nobody, right? You know. But but then she going go. What do you mean? I'm. I'd say it's just a big workout. You know, we get to move everything into a big van and then, you know, take it off. And then because I then rob some of my, you know, close, mates into doing this with me, and I'd say we're going to have, like, the best workout ever.

It's going to take us two days, but convince them that this was like this massive endurance workout and, and they would they would always reply the fact that, oh, this is great. You know, this is great. You know, what we're doing? Like, you know, and, I mean, cities, bridges, Yeah, yeah. Moving house, like, the worst thing ever, you know?

But, yeah, to be able to switch that up, I think, is, that's a good example of my PRINT® in action.

They fall for it more than once. They will. What did they come back for more?

One of them seven times, you know. So, so the underwear. Yeah. It just, if I ever even say I'm thinking about moving again, you know, he will, he'll disappear for months on end, you know?

That's. But that's that's a that's a great story. And I love the unshakable optimist. I think that should be your, your your little tagline.

Yeah. Thank you.

Kay: You know that we have a little playlist and I ask all of our guests to add to our playlist. So for you, Wayne, what would be your go to track your tune, your song, something that you know when you're in that place of being that unshakable optimist, firing on all cylinders, what would be that go to tune that you would listen to?

Wayne: This was, like, so difficult for me. It was like, almost like saying to me, what? Who's your favourite out of my three daughters is like, you know, it's obviously, I've not got a favourite. I have three daughters. But, but in the end, I went all the way back to my roots. And I'm a mancunian, you know? So, Stone Roses, I am the resurrection.

Nice.

That one particularly because if you.

I managed to see Oasis on on so a couple of times last year and if you ever, if you ever watch Oasis or you ever watch Liam, there's a set amount of tracks they play in the arena before they come on. And you always know when it's getting to that time. When I am, the resurrection comes on and, you know, true, you know, kind of Oasis fans or Liam fans that know every single word to that song, you know, Inside Out and, yeah.

And what advice has come from Ian Brown, you know, on the Stone Roses, you know, so yeah,

You you you finally managed to just choose. I know that you've got a wealth of them and, that's that's that's a great. Hardest decision ever. Yeah.

I'll, I'll let you add any, any more on to that list if you want to, but that is a great song to, to add to

Thank you.

Kay: So we're coming to the end of our little catch up. Wayne, it's been lovely to to talk to you. If anybody wants to get in touch with you, I know that you know you are very much in that space of coaching, mentoring, supporting, sharing all the

What's the best way for people to get in touch with you?

Wayne: Email would be the best way, wayneokell@fairways.co and, yeah, drop us a line and get in touch. And it'd be great to hear from my the people who are aspiring print coaches or other print coaches and just even to share some practice.

You know, that be amazing to do.

Kay: Thank you so much. Well, thank you for being with us today. It's been so insightful. I love talking to you because we could do this for hours and you know, you do some incredible stuff with Prince. So thank you so much for being one of our wonderful flag fliers.

Thank you very much indeed. I've enjoyed it.

Cheers. Okay,