Kay: Emma is a Commandant of the RAF's Tedder Academy of Leadership. Emma is responsible for the strategic direction of leadership, command and coaching and mentoring across the RAF. Her career has seen her serving both the UK and abroad and earn multiple accolades and awards.

In April 2015, Emma became the first woman to run the RAF Officer Training with responsibility for the welfare, training, standards and outcomes for all staff and the cadets at the Royal Air Force College. Passionate about helping people to achieve their potential, Emma is a highly qualified and experienced coach and mediator and is currently undertaking a PhD in relationship between trust and conflict.

So welcome, Emma. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Emma: Hi, Kay. You're welcome. It's lovely to be here.

Kay: Oh it's amazing. That intro is quite outstanding. And it’s one of those where do you even begin to kind of unpick the stuff that you've done. So thank you so much for joining us. So I suppose my first question to you is, you know, tell me about the first time that you encountered PRINT® and the impact that it had on you.

Emma: Yeah, well, you know, it was really interesting because I was doing some work with Lincoln Business School, actually, on some other areas and doing some work there. And one of the people that I met there was a PRINT® coach. And I sort of had got chatting to her and she was sort of chatting to me and telling me about PRINT®, and I just sort of thought it sounded really, really interesting.

And I've done quite a lot of self-awareness tools, you know, I'm qualified in quite a few and I, you know, had quite a few of them done to me. And I think they all have value. But there was something about PRINT® and the language and the way it kind of, is used that just really intrigued me.

So I had PRINT® done myself, initially, to see if I liked it and, you know, what I thought I could get from it. And then based on that, I then decided to make the decision to bring it into the Air Force, because I was really impressed. And I really loved the report, and I liked the way it kind of worked and came across. But that's sort of how I first came across it. It was just a conversation, and I was seeking something different to bring into the Air Force at a particular level, at strategic leadership.

Kay: What was it that was different about it? I mean I think it is quite interesting when you've experienced other types of profiling tools. And so you do have that luxury don't you, to compare and contrast, what was what was different about PRINT®?

Emma: So I love all self-awareness tools. And when you understand my PRINT®, you'll understand why, because I'm constantly seeking that kind of information. So I think, you know, there's value in all of them, isn't there? And different ones resonate with all of us. But what I really loved about PRINT® was first, I guess the language felt really accessible, just felt really easy to engage with. You know, it made sense to me as I read it. And I have the experience with lots of different PRINT® types reading it, saying yes, I, you know, I get it, it makes sense.

But I also what I really loved is I think a lot of self-awareness tools can leave you with a better knowledge of yourself, but perhaps not quite what to do with that knowledge. What I really loved with the PRINT® report was that actually the work around, you know, triggers, what can send you into that shadow behavior. And then actually the work around the strategies to help you keep your self and best self and return to best self. So I sort of really liked that it wasn't just about self-awareness. It really had that self-management element in it as well. Which I felt kind of came across a bit stronger than I've come across before in the other tools. So yeah, so I really loved that part. I could do something about it.

Kay : It’s amazing isn't it. Where you know you find something that's really quite specific that it really helps you to do. And when it, when it kind of hits the nail on the head and you're thinking about a programme that you're creating or developing how that absolutely galvanizes the whole programme together. So I'm going to I'm going to dive into, you know, the Tedder Academy and, you know, the leadership development that you do, because I'm fascinated by the fact of, you know, you bringing PRINT® into that Academy and developing your leaders through that. Can you share with us about how you use it and the impact that it has?

Emma: Yeah, absolutely. So as you probably expect, members of the RAF, we do quite a lot of leadership training and a lot of development actually at all ranks, you know, our most junior ranks to our most senior ranks. Because, you know, it's really important to say that we have a fundamental belief that, you know, we have leaders at all levels. You know, even our most junior person is a leader because they have to lead themselves. And we really try and start that conversation early, that actually before you can lead others, you lead yourself. And, you know, you might not have a team, you might not have staff, but actually you're leading others by role modelling. So again, the most junior person can still be leading those around them by that example.

So this idea of leading self is really important to to me and to us in the Air Force. And one of the programmes that I was running or am running is the Strategic Leadership Development Programme, which is for our Group Captain level. So within a year of promotion, they come on the course, you know, and these are people in really senior positions, you know, they're the people running stations or running large programmes, large projects. And up to this point, they will have done a lot of leadership, you know, and they'll be really experienced. But sometimes the more senior you get, I think you, you know, you can forget, can't you? And you can develop bad habits and perhaps people don't tell you as honestly as they should as much as we try to create that challenge culture. But telling the boss that you know something's not working is hard, isn't it? It's really hard. So I felt like it was a really important moment to pull our senior leaders away, to reflect on leading themselves again at this senior level, because I really believe that the more senior you get, I guess the bigger your leadership shadow casts.

So if the boss comes in in a bad mood or with bad behaviours, that has a disproportionate impact compared to anybody else, you know. But equally there's some they can cast, you know, so your behaviours have a real impact when you've got many people working for you.

So I really wanted the first session of the Strategic Leadership Development Programme to be really, really anchoring for themselves, back on to leading self. But I needed to do it in a grown up way because these are senior experienced people, and I needed to do it in a way that they could not feel patronized by it, not think you know, oh I’m being told something I already know, you know. And PRINT® sort of was a really great tool for me to do that because it allowed us to show them their reports, talk about their reports, but also get them talking as a cohort and actually sharing that, of course they’ve got shadowing behaviours. You know, we all do. And they're actually really interestingly when we're under pressure, we're tired and we're, you know, we've got all of these sort of overwhelming responsibilities. Actually, we're potentially more likely to, you know, creep into those behaviours. And it's not a judgment, it's just really human and, really normal. But actually this is really important that we remember that.

And so this session lands really, really well. And we use it up front, first session with them. And we use it to then set the tone for the following. They have five more sessions over kind of a sort of 16 month period. But we refer back to their PRINT® profiles throughout the other sessions. So if we're talking about leading change, for example, in a future session, we'll say, remember your PRINT®, how might you cope and change? You know, remember what you've got within your team? So we will refer back to it.

So it's you know, that's how we brought it in and embedded it. Yeah. It's really around this lead self. But we break lead self into self-awareness and self-management. You know, I could list and I could easily list all of my, you know, areas of development, let's say. You know weaknesses areas of development. I could list them all to you. I think I'm pretty okay with them by now, but if I do nothing about them, like that self-awareness actually makes no difference for me or anyone around me. So you know, when people hold up self-awareness as the Holy Grail, to me it's just the first part. The self-management is the really critical bit, and it's also the really hard bit. Right? Like I study this stuff. I've spent years looking at this stuff. I've, you know, and I still have to catch myself. I still get it wrong, you know? But it's all a journey to raising your consciousness and trying your best to recognize the impact. So yeah, so that's what we're trying to do with them, but in a really grown up way that lands and that they can then refer to that throughout, you know, they're really important command jobs.

Kay: What benefits have you seen as a result of bringing PRINT® into that programme? Because I'm assuming that you've run the programme for many years, and PRINT® is, is something that has been much more recently kind of brought in.

Emma: Yeah. Absolutely. So it is so PRINT® is sort of relatively new to the programme. And actually we've had really brilliant feedback. I mean, really positive feedback. You know, and actually people coming to talk to me after the sort of group session, one on one, really wanting a bit of time to chat through their PRINT® in more detail, you know, really wanting to understand it, which is obviously brilliant. And I, you know, love it when those people want to explore it more, understands it more.

So I think I would say it's had multiple benefits. So one, just that individual level raising that consciousness of our really sort of significant leaders going into really important posts. Helping them think as well about how they can talk to the people in their team and help them in a good way. So obviously, in the PRINT® report, one of the things I love is it's the communication strategies, and I love that it has tips for how you can communicate better using your best self. But I love that it also has something you can give to those around you to say, here's some really great ways to think about communicating with me, you know? So actually, what a gift to your team to be able to say, not in a mandated way, because of course, a leader must adapt to the people in their team too. But what a gift to be able to give to somebody you're working really closely with. Like, you know, just be aware, this is this really helps me to get information in this way. I work like this. I'll try my best to be flexible, but here's the why of me, you know, let's work together really well. So I think it's a gift for the people they're going to work with. I think it is for them. And it's about trying to create this really emotionally intelligent leadership in our organization, you know?

But I would say the other real benefit is the humility. You know, we've got a room full of really talented, bright, experienced people who've done well. You know, they've reached a rank where not only have they got into the Air Force, but they've # progressed in it. They've done really well. So you have some really fabulous people, but even really fabulous people still have things to work on, you know, and can forget and can make errors. And so I think the humility around, you know, those areas of development and admitting the impact we can have on those around us when we get it wrong is it's quite humbling and it brings a real humility to it. You know, I know when, you know, I read my report for the first time, there was some stuff in my shadow self that I really didn't like. You know, there was words in there that really made me kind of almost physically recoil and wince a bit because they’re really horrible words in the really, you know, the dark shadow self aren’t they? They're not words I want to be. But if I'm really, really honest with myself, you know, on a bad day in the wrong situation, I do those things. And I, I've reached a level of, I guess acceptance, is that the word, where I can own that now. And to say, yeah, you know what, these are the counters to my strengths that, you know, I can go into those places. And I need to remember because those things have an impact on those around me. And, you know, not just in work, but at home, because I'm a big believer that if we want our people to perform well at work, you know, your whole life matters, doesn't it? Like, you know, if your whole lives in balance, your brain's less cluttered, you can come into work more focused. So, interestingly, I would say, you know, my shadow behaviours probably play out more at home than work, because at work I almost have the strategies. And I can, you know, I kind of know that some of these behaviours are not acceptable. But actually that's not that's also not okay. And so for our leaders that I'm working with as well, it's that awareness that, yes, you're going into a really high pressured post, be aware that you might get home and, you know, let that pressure out and what impact does that have.

And so we talk quite holistically around it as well. So I think the benefits are really multiple and they're different for everyone, right. Like so some people will absorb it straight away and it's just their thing and they get it. And others maybe it's a slower journey or they only resonate with a small part of it, or, you know, it takes a little while for it to click. But again, that's okay. You know, if they need longer to reflect on it or they perhaps don't resonate with it for a while, that's fine. It's just a tool for them to engage with, to be aware of. And if somebody is really kind of like, actually, I don't resonate with it, I'll just leave it with them and say, look, just, you know, maybe look at 360 feedback you've had, maybe look at your reports. If you've ever been given any feedback, look for trends. And then it was quite funny because one person came back to me a few weeks later and said, you know, I didn't resonate with my report. And I said, yeah. And they said, well, I went back and looked back through some of my reports and 360 feedback. And one of the comments kept coming up. I just like giggled, went, oh really? Like that. Like, you know. But I really loved his honesty that he had gone and engaged with it and it took him a little bit of time to go. Yeah. Okay. You know, there’s something in it.

Kay : Yeah. It's a bit of a you know, fair play, you've absolutely nailed it.

Emma: Yeah.

Kay: I think that's, some really interesting things that you've kind of highlighted there. And I love the fact of that holistic piece. And you know, and the fact that, you know, people in this service, in these leadership positions can be in some very challenging situations. And, you know, and you're right, it is situational and in context, isn't it? And sometimes we read these things and go, is that really me? I don't recognize that. And then it's actually understanding ,where that happens, when that happens, who you’re with and what is the impact. But you're absolutely right Emma, in the in the respect of once you recognize it and are conscious about it, then that's the gift, isn't it? The gift is then, okay, so now I can start to make some choices. I can start to make some, you know, create strategies or think about what I want to do differently when I'm in that situation in the future.

Emma: Yeah. And that's exactly what I do. So I, I would say I'm still very much and I'm assuming it's going to be a lifelong journey of that self-management. And you know, I'm at the place where when I do something, you know, from my shadow self, I now notice it and I'm aware of it. You know, and I can try and correct it and get myself back to best self, and better outcomes or apologize if that's required. You know, and I guess the real mastery is not to do it in the first place. But, you know, it's also being kind to yourself that actually it's really human, isn't it, to do these things and to be triggered and, and, it's just how quickly you can, okay, you know, it's not really helping me in the long run to be in that space. And nobody's getting the best of me, including me, you know? So actually, let's try and move on from that. So, yeah, I think it's just it's just, you know, recognizing it, isn't it? And being conscious.

Kay: What would you say is the greatest success that you've had. Whether that's at the Tedder Academy, you know, integrating it into your leadership programme or, or even for yourself or even beyond that programme. What would you say is the greatest success that you've had by using, implementing or, you know, integrating PRINT®?

Emma: So one of the exercises I really like within PRINT® is when you work on your top trigger and you sit in a group with people of different PRINT® s to yourself, and they give you advice over how they might handle that trigger. I love that exercise because it never fails to fascinate me just how different we all are and the different things we literally see, you know and hear and feel and how different. And it always makes me smile that, you know, one person's trigger, another person is literally going, it wouldn't bother me, literally wouldn't bother me and I'd do this.

And so I think we had one session where actually this group, you know, were giving each other guidance on how they would handle each other's triggers. You know, and actually, this stuff that was coming out, you know, was just brilliant and really helpful, really practical, helpful things that other people are already doing in the workplace that you can learn from. You know, so they are professional, competent solutions that you just because you're sort of blind to them, you're not accessing them, you know, you're not accessing those strategies or even seeing them.So I love that sort of sharing of the strategies.

And then on an individual level, one individual who I felt so pleased to have helped was there was one person who did the PRINT® with us through the Air Force and a very strong sort of PRINT® 1, 3. And I had a wonderful conversation with this person where they talked about, obviously, one, being kind of driven very high standards and three, you know, success really matters. Results really mattered. And I remember just saying to them, wow, must be really exhausting. Like constantly to have that level of standards and it need to be successful. This person just kind of suddenly went, yeah, it really is. I'm just shattered. And it was just this kind of really quite funny moment where this really hyper focused, brilliant individual, you know, who is clearly succeeding on every level, but just had this moment of being able to admit, yes, it’s exhausting! And we had this wonderful conversation where it's like, okay so where could you lower those standards a little bit? Where could you just give yourself a break, you know, because actually the chances are you're going further, you're going higher. Your area of responsibility is getting bigger. You're not going to be able to uphold that standard across everything. You're going to have to trust other people to do that. You know that's what you're doing. You're stepping up the strategic. You're going to have to let go. How are you going to do that? But what a gift. Because actually you could have some sleep, you know, like you can have a break. And it was just I think, you know, it was one of those conversations on an individual level, I just really enjoyed seeing this person have this recognition and laugh at yeah, just how utterly exhausting it was to keep driving continuously, you know? So, yes, I think just little moments like that where people, you know, you can see they have really learned something that's going to help them.

Kay: And how long ago did this conversation take place? Is it recent or is it a little while ago?

Emma: You know I think that one was a few months ago. So yeah, a couple of months ago probably. So I should probably check in.

Kay: Have you heard since?

Emma: You know I haven’t. I should probably check in and just go, yeah, are you remembering to take those breaks? You know, but it was just, you know, it was just it's really interesting recognition and they had, you know, a wonderful reflection moment where they actually thought as well back to their childhood and where some of that pressure and drive had had also been sort of dialled up. And, you know, it was just really interesting. I don't think they had ever thought about it in that way. And to be able to reframe success to them. So working with their language, you know, acknowledging that as a PRINT® 3, success really mattered, you know, but actually helping them reframe, but what success at what, you know, what is success? Could you be successful at looking after yourself? You know, could you be successful that like actually, you know, having a nice time with your friends, it's still success. It's just different. You know, how do you create goals? So I really liked this idea of working with language that resonated with them and would appeal, but making them, you know, see a slightly bigger picture as well. But yeah, I'll check in with them. It's a good reminder.

Kay: And I think you're absolutely right. You know as a coach it does give you that shortcut immediately doesn't it. To the language, to their frame of reference, to understanding, you know because as a coach we're also looking at it through our own filters, aren't we? And experiencing those words and language and motivated through our own filters. And like you said, when you do that exercise, some people would never have considered that strategy at all. But being able to model other people’s thoughts or reflections can be really insightful and can really help us to, you know, to grow and develop, I suppose, in that different area. And when you're in those types of high-pressured situations or roles, that's really important, isn't it? Like you said at the beginning, to be flexible and adaptable to whatever you're, you know, whatever you're faced with.

Which kind of brings me, you know, I'm fascinated by the fact that you're doing a doctorate. So your PHD is the relationship between trust and conflict. I'm fascinated by how did you choose that topic and does PRINT® factor into that, or what have you noticed as a result of you being a PRINT® coach?

Emma: Yeah. So you know what, why that topic is a really interesting question. So I've always been fascinated by people. So it's really interesting. I joined the Air Force originally as an Operations Support Officer. So kind of like running the airfield management. And most people in the Air Force will probably kill me for saying this, but I realized really early on I was so much more interested in people than planes. So I can run an airfield, I can manage it. I can do it. But, you know, it's energy draining for me versus when I work with people, it's energy giving. And so I just realized really, really early on in my career that actually, I think if I was going to work with my natural skill set, I was much better at working with people than kind of objects and moving, you know, objects around the world.

And so I was very lucky in that I trained to be a mediator, at the very start of my career. So sort of as a secondary duty to my primary operation support role. And as a mediator, obviously, that's conflict resolution. So helping people to have really tricky conversations that are hard for them to have. And it's really interesting, you know, you're talking then about your own perceptions and your own frame of reference and everything else. And when you're mediating, actually you've got to try incredibly hard to be really neutral and objective because you can't be showing, you know, a leaning to one person. So, you know, you are really trying to listen and absorb and then help find the commonalities for the conversation for these people. And to create it as a safe space. So it's something that I've really love. And I, you know, my husband always laughs and says, God it sounds awful, sorting out people arguing. I’m like no, but it's not. It's amazing actually, I love it. You see two people come into the room so stressed, so worried, so anxious. And the impacts of interpersonal conflict on us physically is just insane. And I love it if you can get a breakthrough and you see people walk out lighter, freer, happier because they've been able to have those conversations.

So I've been doing that for years. And within those conversations, I started to notice that trust was a really important issue. You know, trust underpins everything does, and it runs through pretty much everything we do. And I think when it comes to things like interpersonal conflict, you do just sort of really see that it's this trust that's been eroded in the belief in the other person's good intentions. So I was just really interested in what caused that, what caused that breakdown in trust and how that then interacted with how we relate with another human being. So that's why that topic was through my experience of that.

And also the other reason for the topic is because interpersonal conflict and low trust impacts performance at work. You know, it massively impacts a team. Air Force has a really important job to do. You know, there's no startup coming to take over, right? We have a really important job to do and people need to deliver. And we need high performing teams. You know, we need high performing teams. We need people that can join a team quickly and trust and move because actually you're moving around a lot. It’s not a team you've known for years. You've got to build that trust fast. So that's the other reason, because I really want to understand what are the organizational factors and environment that can help prevent low trust, interpersonal conflict. So we can have high performance and operational effectiveness. So that's the theme and why.

PRINT® is really interesting. So I'm super lucky in that I get to do these really interesting things like PRINT®. And every time I'm kind of connecting dots in my head, that's probably the Print 4 part of my brain. But, I'm constantly connecting dots and like, thinking like, that's interesting. That's interesting. And I think one of the things I find really interesting and is really surfacing with me is this how different Print types interact with conflict. You know, how they perceive conflict, the impact of conflict on them. You know, just think about a Print 3 and a Print 9, their responses to conflict are going to be quite different. That's not to say it's easy for one and hard for the other, because I truly believe actually interpersonal conflict has an impact on everybody, but it presents in a different way.

But I think also trust, you know. So trust is sort of fundamentally made up of character and competence. You know, do I believe the person is capable and do I trust them to do the job they're doing? And do I trust their character? And, you know, a good example of that would be I might really trust somebody to represent me in a meeting, but I wouldn't leave them with my children. You know, I trust their competence in work, but maybe not their character and vice versa. I might have somebody to leave my children with because I really trust their character. So, you know, you're looking for the combination of both, for the context that you're in for that trust. But different, I think. And, you know, but different PRINT® types may also trust in different ways. So PRINT® 5, you know, if you give them inaccurate information up front, that's going to really impact their view of your competence, right. Or, you know, and therefore how much they trust you because data really matters. But equally, you know, I guess a different PRINT® type, like a PRINT® 2, if you were a bit cold and you weren't warm and you weren't engaging, that might impact the way that they trust or they engage. So I think it's just these different lenses, isn't it, of what might be going on for people. And they're complex and multifaceted because my view of conflict will be made up of my character, my experience, my background, my upbringing, my, you know, everything. How much sleep I had last night. You know, so all of these things. So it's multifaceted, but for me, you know, without doubt, our character plays a part in the way we interface with conflict and trust these, you know, massive things, our character has a role in, in that and how it shapes the conflict we're in. If that makes sense.

Kay: Yeah. It's fascinating. I just think that you know looking at it through so many different lenses really highlights, doesn't it, about you know how we interact with the world and the things that do motivate and drive us and what motivates us to trust something or not to trust something I think is quite fascinating. I know obviously you've done lots and lots of profiles over the years at the at the Tedder Academy. Do you see any commonalities or common threads with PRINT® profiles, or do you see a real broad mixture that are that that's attracted to, you know, the service or to that particular role?

Emma: Yeah. So I think ,on the programme that I run, the Strategic Leadership Development Programme, we have all professions across the Air Force. So what they have in common is that they're the same rank and they're in the Air Force. But actually one could be a lawyer, one could be a doctor, one could be pilot, one's an engineer, one's admin. So actually their role within the service is different. So because of that I think we do get quite a broad mix actually. And I think we get more diversity than people perhaps might think. You know, I know diversity is often looked at as just kind of, you know, perhaps the protected characteristics, where we are perhaps not as strong as we should be, but actually diversity of thought, I would say the Air Force and diversity of character, we're pretty good. We recruit from a really broad range of people across the UK, across all sorts of different, you know, social structures. And so, you know, I think we see a quite broad range of PRINT® profiles. What I would say is we do have probably quite a high amount of, of 1s, I would say, and 5s, because we have quite a lot of engineers, we have quite a lot of air traffic controllers and air crew. So we there perhaps is a slight dominance around the data and the, you know, the standards. But it's not it's not as heavily weighted as you might assume.

Kay: You know I think it's fascinating. You know how you was attracted to the Air Force and what you did first of all. And then naturally found your passion and your calling. You know around your why.

Emma: Well, so it's really interesting. So I would say I'm not your typical person to join the Air Force. I mean, nobody in my family was in the military. In fact, they all literally thought I was insane. They didn't know where this had come from. You know, it was all a bit bizarre. And what was I doing? And it is really interesting that I have moved into a role that is perhaps not traditional within the service as well, if that makes sense. I've kind of found my way into something and I'm, you know, and I think that is interesting. I feel very happy and lucky to be in the role I'm in now. I don't think I could find a role that suits me as well as this.

So, you know, I'm a 2, 4. And so I love people. I love working with people, I really love helping people. But the 4 part of me really drives that need for meaning. It's really quite a deep level. I really need meaning. And it's really thrown light over my career because I've only ever wanted to do jobs that really meant something to me. That was more important to me than rank or other things. Not that it's a bad thing to want rank, it isn't. But for me, it was the job. It was what I was doing really mattered. So I love this job. In fact, my biggest fear is what I'll do when I finish this job, because I love it so much and I. And trying to find something else that sort of fulfills me and matches me quite as well as this, I think it's going to be really tough. But the other thing that's interesting is, again, I think I've always been a bit of a free spirit. I really am again, slightly strange to end up in the military. But it's really funny because I quite often say to my friends, you know, yes, of course, discipline and all of those sides. But I feel that my career has had a lot more freedom and a lot more excitement and difference than most office jobs. So actually, that free spirit part is it is there. You know, I mean, I've hung out of the back of helicopters in the Falkland Islands and I've been on aircraft carriers, you know, I’ve been out in the Gulf, like you do stuff like, you know, it's quite fun, it's quite cool. And so it's I think it's a freer, well, it's certainly attracted that freer part of me, I get, then people might expect.

Kay: Incredible. And it's such a fabulous, I know we've talked about that before and it is such a fabulous story. And thank you. You know thank you for sharing it with us. Because I do think, you know, we kind of or have a perception of things don't we? And actually hearing somebody else's, you know, personal story, I think really kind of brings to life what it's really like.

So in the spirit of sharing best practice, you know, is there anything that you you'd like to kind of share with other PRINT® coaches or the people out there? You know, what would be your kind of golden nugget or, you know, pearl of wisdom to share about, you know, what you've done and how you've used PRINT® in, you know, in your career, both kind of professionally and personally?

Emma: Yeah. So I think two bits of advice that I think really stand out. The first is really, really read your own PRINT® report carefully and really, really know yourself because actually you bring that into the facilitation room, you know, and you bring it into the session don't you? And actually, being really alert to that because you might get triggered in there and you know. So like I do, I think the best facilitators are those that really consciously manage their own behaviours as they go in so that they're the best tool possible for the people in the room. So I think definitely that. Spend some time really thinking about who you are and what you're taking in there.

But the other bit is really try to think about the PRINT® you've got in the room. And I know when I was first starting, I reached out to you a couple of times and said, you know, look, I've got, you know, how best way of structuring these groups and who do I put in, you know, conversation with and I guess your experience with that grows, doesn't it, of how to manage these conversations. But I think really knowing who you've got in the room, which PRINT® you've got in the room, because one of the things I really notice is that people do very often, in my view, engage with it through their PRINT®. So the 5s will want loads of detail. So if you've got loads of 5s, you know make sure you've got a few facts up your hat. Do you know what I mean? If you've got loads of sevens, like make sure you've got your breaks and a bit of energy and you know, maybe have a bit music going as you come in, get them smiling, you know, so I would say really know yourself and then really read, really make sure you know he's in the room.

Kay: Really, really good tip. Because it does make all the difference doesn’t it? And you're absolutely right. You have to manage your own PRINT® profile and your unconscious motivators because you do have to create that level of, you know, that unconscious bias sometimes can play out. And I suppose that's what you were saying about being a mediator isn’t it? You know you have to be neutral and actually you have to kind of wear all the different hats to be able to kind of talk that language for everyone.

Emma: Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it's funny because I remember being slightly triggered, actually, in a session when I had done one voluntarily, like, as a sort of, an extra session. I had done something to somebody and, you know, they were in a real rush and they said, oh, yeah, it's a real pain to have to fill in the survey and, you know, bah bah bah. And it really triggered me at first because the 2 in me is trying to be helpful, but I want to be appreciated and valued. You know, and so him being a bit like I didn't have time, I wanted to snap back, well, I'm giving you my time. Like I'm, you know, I'm voluntarily here to give you my time. And then, you know, you sort of almost smile internally and be like don't say that Emma don't say that. Like, hold it in. You know, he's just having a moment. It's fine. And then, you know, like, you can be so well-versed in this stuff and, and you will still have those moments of, you know, oh. So I think it's really important.

And things like, you know, you know, try and have fun I guess as well. But like, I always laugh, like, if I have got loads of PRINT® 1s I like inwardly laugh and go oh I better line the surveys up really neatly. You know, get them all perfect, so I don't upset anyone else, you know? So it's like it's just, yeah, just really knowing who's there and recognizing it, And if you've got a good group, you can start to kind of make jokes like that and people get it.

Kay: Yeah. Well, it connects and doesn't it, you know, immediately, you know, even if it's a little bit of levity immediately, they recognize that that is the stuff that they do or they're motivated by or you know, that behavior that then is either best self or shadow.

Emma: Yeah.

Kay: So thank you Emma. It's been fascinating listening to your story. It's wonderful that you have got PRINT® as a tool integrated into your academy. And it's been fabulous hearing the impact that it's had on, you know, on your delegates and kind of beyond your delegates because this thing cascades through, doesn't it, whether other people have been PRINT®-ed or not. You know, you kind of take that with you. So if any of our listeners want to contact you or hear a little bit more from you or, you know, do that, you know, connecting in, how could they get in contact with you Emma?

Emma: Yeah. So I'm on LinkedIn, obviously, as Emma Keith comes up as Commandant at the Ted Academy of Leadership. So if anybody wants to reach out then they can find me and message me on there.

Kay: Wonderful. Thank you so much. So I always wrap up our PRINT® podcast with two final questions, so my first question is if you had to describe your motivators and what they mean to you, what would you say? Now I know that y you've shared your profile actually, and you've told us a little bit about it. But if you want to give it a description or an image or a quote or whatever that might be, what would you say about your profile?

Emma

So you know what, in best self like I really love that, I guess my profile really wants to help people like, you know, that is always my driver. And I think that's why I love coaching and mediation. And, you know, because it's fundamentally it's helping other people to develop and to achieve. So, I think I always knew the PRINT® 2 side of me and it really resonated the people side. I think the PRINT® profile really highlighted the 4 for me, the meaning, and that was something that I hadn't, I knew I had it, but I hadn't looked it in the face quite as much before. So I think my search for meaning is definitely a bigger drive than I had realized. And it's influenced me in a huge number of ways.

So this is definitely not one sentence, but travel, you know, like, I want to go to Cambodia, I want to go to India. I want to get like, I want to see the world. I want to understand the world. So I think my 2/4 combined has just made me a very curious person, I guess. Really interested in the world, people and things and meaning. I think it's just made me very, very curious. It's probably the best sum up, I guess.

Kay: Well you know, that kind of tells the story of that profile in a nutshell, doesn't it? And as you know, we do have a little playlist

Emma: Yeah.

Kay: So I'm asking all of our guests to share a pick me up song that, you know, might be your go to when you want that little motivational driver. So our playlist is called Now that's what I call my why. So what would it b, Emma, that you would contribute and share with us and what's maybe the story behind it?

Emma: Yeah. So do you know what? Well, it sounds a bit silly, but it's the one I would listen to, which is Bridesmaids by Kylie Morgan. I don't know if you've heard it, but it's a bit of a country song. But I have the best friends in the world. Like, literally the best friends in the world. And actually, I've had some quite challenging moments in my life. So unfortunately, I've lost both of my parents and, my sort of eldest daughter was quite poorly for a period, and various other things. So my girlfriends have always been there for me, always been absolutely amazing. And yeah, so the song bridesmaids, which is about your girlfriends, would always be my go to.

Kay: Marvellous. Well, we will add that on to our list.

Emma Keith, thank you so much for joining us. It’s been an absolute pleasure. I've loved talking to you about your profile and about the Academy and all the other wonderful things that you've done. Good luck with your PhD. We'd love to get you back when you finish that and hear all about, you know, your research, if that's possible.

Thank you all for listening in. And, like and subscribe to hear more wonderful stories from our PRINT® coaches. Thanks very much. Bye bye.